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I understand the concern but people knowing that they MAY face armed resistance when trying to pull some evil stuff like has happened may be enough to cause a change of mind . If... if an innocent should take a hit before the perp took one how many might that save VS just letting someone just fire away unopposed .the people at the range that are giving you concern are ones that most likely wont pull and fire . the effect of a firearm discharge in a confined space will be so disorienting added to the stress of a live fire situation is something that can negate the experienced so I wouldn’t stress over the newbies .

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Was talking to a guy were I work about this the other day. He was at buffalo wild wings in Cape and there was some police officers that came in to eat a couple in uniform and a couple not. They were asked to leave cuase they had there guns on them.
You can\'t fix stupid. They have given a mass shooter a perfect place to kill a large amount of people that will be completely unprotected. :freak:

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Is a collateral casualty a possibility, of course. But the alternative is hiding behind a desk, and somehow that will save more lives? Engaging in \"what if\" scenarios is a waste of time. You can \"what if\" a situation hundreds of ways and make either side of the argument look good, or bad. I\'m just dealing with the facts, and the fact is, armed protection is better than no protection at all.
Well on the flip side, and this is not something to outright dismiss, by the time one such mass shooting is prevented by someone like that, there may be numerous incidents where someone entirely too careless in handling a firearm they carry to be prepared for a mass shooting, can easily add up to the same body count. 1 guy here, 1 guy there, etc. etc. So there, it\'s a fine balance. That\'s what irks the no gun crowd. No doubt in my mind someone that actually bothers to know how to handle a firearm should be allowed to carry one, but 20 tragic mishandling incidents here and there by folks that shot 50 rounds right after they bought their gun and never bothered to learn the intricacies of their gun, can add up to same body count as 1 mass shooter, in the same time frame another such incident occurs. I got a little crappy 22 lr pistol I got on the cheap that with cheap ammo, even with the safety on, will fire off a burst of 2-3 rounds, before jamming up, just by letting the slide slam forward on it\'s own, to chamber the first round. So literally with cheap ammo I have to ease the slide forward even with safety on, just for it to not go all ape on me. And it took me a good 5-6 trips to the shooting range to find that out, because with the better Fiochi 22lr ammo I was mostly using, that problem didn\'t appear. Something similar can easily happen to someone that doesn\'t bother to get to know their gun sufficiently before they carry it. And it might be someone else\'s life that lack of knowledge needlessly costs.

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Well on the flip side, and this is not something to outright dismiss, by the time one such mass shooting is prevented by someone like that, there may be numerous incidents where someone entirely too careless in handling a firearm they carry to be prepared for a mass shooting, can easily add up to the same body count. 1 guy here, 1 guy there, etc. etc. So there, it\'s a fine balance. That\'s what irks the no gun crowd. No doubt in my mind someone that actually bothers to know how to handle a firearm should be allowed to carry one, but 20 tragic mishandling incidents here and there by folks that shot 50 rounds right after they bought their gun and never bothered to learn the intricacies of their gun, can add up to same body count as 1 mass shooter, in the same time frame another such incident occurs. .
Again, you are playing \"what if\" scenarios. There is absolutely no evidence to support that theory. In over 99% of self defense shootings, there is no collateral damage at all. Look at the facts, and the actual numbers, if you don\'t believe me. The FBI stats are available online. In the same time frame of the last 3 mass shootings, hundreds of Americans have lost their lives to individual shootings by criminal murders. Mostly in cities with very strict gun laws, and very liberal punishment sentences for such criminals. I can only speak for myself, but I\'d much rather have a novice firearms owner stand up to protect me than nobody at all.

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Well on the flip side, and this is not something to outright dismiss, by the time one such mass shooting is prevented by someone like that, there may be numerous incidents where someone entirely too careless in handling a firearm they carry to be prepared for a mass shooting, can easily add up to the same body count. 1 guy here, 1 guy there, etc. etc. So there, it\'s a fine balance. That\'s what irks the no gun crowd. No doubt in my mind someone that actually bothers to know how to handle a firearm should be allowed to carry one, but 20 tragic mishandling incidents here and there by folks that shot 50 rounds right after they bought their gun and never bothered to learn the intricacies of their gun, can add up to same body count as 1 mass shooter, in the same time frame another such incident occurs. I got a little crappy 22 lr pistol I got on the cheap that with cheap ammo, even with the safety on, will fire off a burst of 2-3 rounds, before jamming up, just by letting the slide slam forward on it\'s own, to chamber the first round. So literally with cheap ammo I have to ease the slide forward even with safety on, just for it to not go all ape on me. And it took me a good 5-6 trips to the shooting range to find that out, because with the better Fiochi 22lr ammo I was mostly using, that problem didn\'t appear. Something similar can easily happen to someone that doesn\'t bother to get to know their gun sufficiently before they carry it. And it might be someone else\'s life that lack of knowledge needlessly costs.
Aww come on... you have got to be kidding... Cheap ammo??? \"learn the intricacies of their gun\"??? Sounds like it\'s time to either retire that thing to a leisurely life as a trotline weight or consider having a gunsmith take a look at it. I\'d probably lean toward the first :thumbup:

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Aww come on... you have got to be kidding... Cheap ammo??? \"learn the intricacies of their gun\"??? Sounds like it\'s time to either retire that thing to a leisurely life as a trotline weight or consider having a gunsmith take a look at it. I\'d probably lean toward the first :thumbup:

As crappy of a gun it is, 22 is the only caliber I can currently afford to shoot on a regular basis, so no trotline weight for it. And I\'m pretty sure from all the reviews I read, these guns came out as crappy from out of the box. Not seen too many positive reviews for a PPK style ERMA Rx 22, or whatever they\'re called. I just don\'t think the design seems well suited to rimfires. But I got it for cheap. So it will do as is.

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As crappy of a gun it is, 22 is the only caliber I can currently afford to shoot on a regular basis, so no trotline weight for it. And I\'m pretty sure from all the reviews I read, these guns came out as crappy from out of the box. Not seen too many positive reviews for a PPK style ERMA Rx 22, or whatever they\'re called. I just don\'t think the design seems well suited to rimfires. But I got it for cheap. So it will do as is.
Still better than sharpened pencil, or a rock, or a desk to hide behind though, correct?

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Again, you are playing \"what if\" scenarios. There is absolutely no evidence to support that theory. In over 99% of self defense shootings, there is no collateral damage at all. Look at the facts, and the actual numbers, if you don\'t believe me. The FBI stats are available online. In the same time frame of the last 3 mass shootings, hundreds of Americans have lost their lives to individual shootings by criminal murders. Mostly in cities with very strict gun laws, and very liberal punishment sentences for such criminals. I can only speak for myself, but I\'d much rather have a novice firearms owner stand up to protect me than nobody at all.

They\'re not just \"What if scenarios\"? Wasn\'t it just a few weeks ago some guy accidentally fired off some gun he was trying to sell at a gunshow? Or the cop who\'s gun went off by accident during a movie in a movie theater. A year or so back, some guys derringer pocket pistol somewhere near St. Louis went off and hit somebody at a party. Hell, a few years back I remember reading about some guy in Imperial or near there, blowing his head off trying to show his girlfriend how safety\'s work, by putting a loaded gun to his head and hoping the safety would come through for him. And essentially on a monthly basis somebody in a household being accidentally shot because someone thought they were handling an unloaded gun. Maybe you\'re right that in over 99% of self defense shootings, there\'s no collateral damage (I doubt 99% but ok), that being said you mean to guarantee to me that not one of those cases listed above could\'ve happened to someone essentially having the gun for the same reason? I\'m pretty sure a couple of those were exactly what I\'m talking about. Sure none of them in those cases, used it in a self defense scenario, but some of them certainly had it for that scenario, and stuff happened before there was any need for them to pull it out. I don\'t mind a novice firearms owner trying to protect me, then again I\'m not going to utterly dismiss that perhaps that same novice firearms owner might accidentally shoot me several times over, before there\'s ever a need for him to protect me. That\'s the only dilemma I have with it.

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Still better than sharpened pencil, or a rock, or a desk to hide behind though, correct?

No doubt. I\'m not arguing that. Otherwise why would I have guns to begin with. The question is, is it still better if it\'s in let\'s say my friend\'s hands, who by himself doesn\'t know how to load the magazine in said gun, or what position is safe or fire, someplace where my chances of needing his protection or a sharpened pencil, rock, or desk to hide behind from a shooter, are slimmer than being accidentally shot by him. Case in point. Refer to this video. Would you feel safer if someone along his lines was carrying to protect you from a mass shooter, or just taking your chances? Cause as much as we like to think folks carrying aren\'t like this, some, and it\'s my guess more than expected, take their loaded gun as seriously as this not-so-stand-up citizen.

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They\'re not just \"What if scenarios\"? Wasn\'t it just a few weeks ago some guy accidentally fired off some gun he was trying to sell at a gunshow? Or the cop who\'s gun went off by accident during a movie in a movie theater. A year or so back, some guys derringer pocket pistol somewhere near St. Louis went off and hit somebody at a party. Hell, a few years back I remember reading about some guy in Imperial or near there, blowing his head off trying to show his girlfriend how safety\'s work, by putting a loaded gun to his head and hoping the safety would come through for him. And essentially on a monthly basis somebody in a household being accidentally shot because someone thought they were handling an unloaded gun. Maybe you\'re right that in over 99% of self defense shootings, there\'s no collateral damage (I doubt 99% but ok), that being said you mean to guarantee to me that not one of those cases listed above could\'ve happened to someone essentially having the gun for the same reason? I\'m pretty sure a couple of those were exactly what I\'m talking about. Sure none of them in those cases, used it in a self defense scenario, but some of them certainly had it for that scenario, and stuff happened before there was any need for them to pull it out. I don\'t mind a novice firearms owner trying to protect me, then again I\'m not going to utterly dismiss that perhaps that same novice firearms owner might accidentally shoot me several times over, before there\'s ever a need for him to protect me. That\'s the only dilemma I have with it.
So you are going back 3 years or more to try and raise a point? How many Americans have been murdered in the last 3 years? What percentage of them has been from mass murders? What percentage of those has been from semi automatic rifles with magazines over 10 rounds? How many of them could have been prevented or stopped before the loss of life got as high as it did with armed protection? You are still bringing up \"what if\" scenarios, not to mention accidental shootings that have nothing to do with self defense, or murder. You are making the very case the liberal left wing wants you to bring up, which is, guns are bad no matter what you own own one for. Turn off the MSNBC and get back to the facts and reality.

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I\'m sure most of you have seen this story on the news today:http://news.yahoo.com/massive-manhunt-ex-cop-accused-killing-3-175229179.htmlIf there ever was a perfect example of why a person would feel the need to have a semi automatic weapon with a high capacity magazine to protect and defend themselves, this would be it. A mentally disturbed individual, former LEO and member of the military, with legal access to firearms that they want to ban for ordinary citizens, on a killing spree. Under the weapons ban proposed in congress, even if you and I weren\'t allowed to own these firearms, this man would have still been allowed. :nonono:

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So you are going back 3 years or more to try and raise a point? How many Americans have been murdered in the last 3 years? What percentage of them has been from mass murders? What percentage of those has been from semi automatic rifles with magazines over 10 rounds? How many of them could have been prevented or stopped before the loss of life got as high as it did with armed protection? You are still bringing up \"what if\" scenarios, not to mention accidental shootings that have nothing to do with self defense, or murder. You are making the very case the liberal left wing wants you to bring up, which is, guns are bad no matter what you own own one for. Turn off the MSNBC and get back to the facts and reality.

I\'m not following, what do you mean I\'m going back 3 years? The last accident as the ones I mentioned didn\'t happen 3 years back, I can say that with certainty. Accidental shootings can as demonstrated at least by the cop in the theater, have occurred as a result of someone carrying it for self defense, how can you just sweep that under the rug, and claim that\'s completely unrelated? All I\'m saying is, if I\'m left with the choice of someone who\'s reckless with the DANG thing, carrying it, on the off chance that he\'ll save me in a mass shooting, or any other kind of shooting scenario, I also have to weigh the chance that he\'ll accidentally blow me away, and that the odds of that happening might actually be better than either of the first two. That\'s why I\'d rather not take my chances if the person \"protecting\" me, is reckless with the thing. If you think that\'s some MSNBC point I\'m making and that this has no relevance at all, then I suggest you go hunt someplace were everyone but you, is drunk off their ass, and see if you feel perfectly at ease, if one of them mistakes you for a deer on the way out. As far as semi auto rifles, I\'m sure they\'re clearly not used as much as pistols and all, even for mass shootings, and I\'m not trying to insinuate that they should be banned. I even have some, along with a healthy dose of 30 round mags. But seriously, you\'ve got to admit there\'s certain advantages to having a 30 rd magazine over say a 15 or 10 round one. Especially when the caliber too, is more potent than a handgun one. And it\'s not just good guys that recognize that. Plenty of evidence bad folks understand that too. And they\'re the ones more likely to use it for something requiring the full 30 rd load.

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I\'m not following, what do you mean I\'m going back 3 years? The last accident as the ones I mentioned didn\'t happen 3 years back, I can say that with certainty. Accidental shootings can as demonstrated at least by the cop in the theater, have occurred as a result of someone carrying it for self defense, how can you just sweep that under the rug, and claim that\'s completely unrelated? All I\'m saying is, if I\'m left with the choice of someone who\'s reckless with the dang thing, carrying it, on the off chance that he\'ll save me in a mass shooting, or any other kind of shooting scenario, I also have to weigh the chance that he\'ll accidentally blow me away, and that the odds of that happening might actually be better than either of the first two. That\'s why I\'d rather not take my chances if the person \"protecting\" me, is reckless with the thing. If you think that\'s some MSNBC point I\'m making and that this has no relevance at all, then I suggest you go hunt someplace were everyone but you, is drunk off their ass, and see if you feel perfectly at ease, if one of them mistakes you for a deer on the way out. As far as semi auto rifles, I\'m sure they\'re clearly not used as much as pistols and all, even for mass shootings, and I\'m not trying to insinuate that they should be banned. I even have some, along with a healthy dose of 30 round mags. But seriously, you\'ve got to admit there\'s certain advantages to having a 30 rd magazine over say a 15 or 10 round one. Especially when the caliber too, is more potent than a handgun one. And it\'s not just good guys that recognize that. Plenty of evidence bad folks understand that too. And they\'re the ones more likely to use it for something requiring the full 30 rd load.
You brought up an accidental shooting that by your own words was \"a few years ago\". I wanted to know what point you were trying to make with that statement, as I find it completely irrelevant to this discussion. And again, you are still trying to use \"what if\" scenarios in your argument. You don\'t get the option of \"what if\" the person is reckless or makes a mistake when trying to protect innocent people from being killed by a mass shooter. You only get the option of armed protection, or no protection. The \"what if\" someone is reckless, or \"what if\" the gun is stolen is the exact rubbish the left wing politicians and media use to condone the banning of all firearms. If you are truly worried that your safety is compromised by the law abiding gun owners that carry concealed weapons, I suggest you move to Chicago. Then you will only have to worry about the criminals that carry concealed weapons. You need look no farther than the current situation happening in California to understand why a person may need and/or want a semi automatic rifle with a \"high capacity\" magazine to defend and protect themselves. The police don\'t want to be out gunned by a mentally unstable person, and neither do law abiding citizens trying to protect themselves, their families, and their property.

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You brought up an accidental shooting that by your own words was \"a few years ago\". I wanted to know what point you were trying to make with that statement, as I find it completely irrelevant to this discussion. And again, you are still trying to use \"what if\" scenarios in your argument. You don\'t get the option of \"what if\" the person is reckless or makes a mistake when trying to protect innocent people from being killed by a mass shooter. You only get the option of armed protection, or no protection. The \"what if\" someone is reckless, or \"what if\" the gun is stolen is the exact rubbish the left wing politicians and media use to condone the banning of all firearms. If you are truly worried that your safety is compromised by the law abiding gun owners that carry concealed weapons, I suggest you move to Chicago. Then you will only have to worry about the criminals that carry concealed weapons. You need look no farther than the current situation happening in California to understand why a person may need and/or want a semi automatic rifle with a \"high capacity\" magazine to defend and protect themselves. The police don\'t want to be out gunned by a mentally unstable person, and neither do law abiding citizens trying to protect themselves, their families, and their property.

The point I was trying to make with that statement was that with people that will risk their life by putting a loaded gun to their head to show how safety\'s work, I\'d rather they not be carrying. Because if they\'re reckless enough to do that, who knows how reckless they are when someone else is more likely to face the consequences of their actions. As I mentioned, there\'s plenty of other more recent cases, even by folks that should be trained well enough not to have things like that happen. As far as \"What if\" scenarios. How is some guy with a CC being in the right place at the right time, and reacting the right way, any less of a \"what if\" scenario than what I\'m saying. Both are bound to happen, yet for whatever reason you completely dismiss mine as what if, and yours as perfectly logical, even though an accidental discharge by some reckless idiot will on average happen more frequently than a mass shooting attempt. As far as the situation in California, I\'d gladly have an AK with 30 round mags, just in case, myself, but I\'m not sure if we\'re automatically outgunned against this guy. I don\'t recall them saying what gun he had at his disposal. That being said, unless you got some ingenious way to carry your 30 round semi auto rifle with you everywhere, and get it in position before the guy ambushing you get\'s his, there\'s always the chance you\'d still be outgunned when you meet him. Last I checked all 3 of his victims so far were caught off guard, and in their car. If you\'d mount a successful defense in that scenario, more likely its going to be with a handgun (i.e. outgunned, assuming he\'s doing his dirty work with the kind of hardware you\'re talking about). Finally, as far as me moving to Chicago, no thanks. I\'m not fond of reckless people, the same as of criminals, having guns, but I\'d rather not be legally penalized for having an answer. In my experience me having something to respond with, has made random idiots in the woods, slightly less reckless. But how about you hang out on a regular basis with folks like these, and trust them that they\'re responsible enough, not to accidentally put a bullet in you somewhere down the road http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et33bbA0GeM&feature=em-subs_digest-vrecswith no worry at all that they just might cost you your life.

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